How not to run an audio company...

[Aaron Clinton 18]

Ultra seems to have entered into this realm: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/89269-ultra-lv-10-a.html

Unreal, read the whole thing.

[Speed 11]

Ultra seems to have entered into this realm: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/89269-ultra-lv-10-a.html

Unreal, read the whole thing.

I couldn't make it past page 4. Has anyone there actually listened to the sub? You know what i think of that crowd. Measuring shit is great and it serves a defined purpose; I like to think that we listen to music in lieu of looking at sound waves and interpreting their modulations. Ultimately, someone has to listen to the thing and see how it sounds. I can testify to having had gear in my system that measured terribly - horns, SETs, hand-built phono cartidges - but didn't necessarily sound that way. On a strictly personal level, I prefer to buy electronics that please all my senses including the analytical, so I've never owned SET and probably never will. Phono cartridges, though, are an entirely different matter.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Speed

[Aaron Clinton 18]

I couldn't make it past page 4. Has anyone there actually listened to the sub? You know what i think of that crowd. Measuring shit is great and it serves a defined purpose; I like to think that we listen to music in lieu of looking at sound waves and interpreting their modulations. Ultimately, someone has to listen to the thing and see how it sounds. I can testify to having had gear in my system that measured terribly - horns, SETs, hand-built phono cartidges - but didn't necessarily sound that way. On a strictly personal level, I prefer to buy electronics that please all my senses including the analytical, so I've never owned SET and probably never will. Phono cartridges, though, are an entirely different matter.

There is more info that answers your question. People have listened, people know how and what makes up the driver, yet Ultra still cannot give any justification or reason for their stratospheric pricing on what appears to be nothing more then an average at best sub woofer.

[Speed 11]

There is more info that answers your question. People have listened, people know how and what makes up the driver, yet Ultra still cannot give any justification or reason for their stratospheric pricing on what appears to be nothing more then an average at best sub woofer.

If I may:

Oh' date=' and by the way, YES!!!!! Since this keeps coming up, yeah, the guy that TESTED the damn thing initially has indeed heard it. You know how I heard it, because I fucking tested it. That's for the next idiot that asks if I've ever heard an Ultra sub.

[/quote']

Followed by:

A critical listening test based on subsonic frequencies? Yeah' date=' that's worth the effort. [/quote']

Perhaps I misunderstood. This isn't what anyone would call a real audition. At the very least, it should involve someone who is willing to listen. This guy ain't it.

My personal favorite post in the thread:

Uhh' date=' no it's not. Seeing as a Klippel test is going to give you many many useful numbers, it's not even close to just looking a vehicle's tested HP numbers.

It would be like looking at HP, torque, 1/4 mile, 0-60, 60-0, skid pad, slalom. Do you want me to continue?

[b']Are you going to know what it's like to drive said vehicle? No, but you have a really damn good idea how it's going to perform in a variety of situations. Which is EXACTLY the purpose of Klippel results.[/b]

<lol> Sure, because an effective 0-60 launch can be performed anywhere by anyone. Same goes for the 1/4; though the trap speed has a significance. Steady-state skidpad numbers are indicative of nothing. Panic braking does have some meaning. From a driver's POV, how a car feels and the confidence it inspires is what allows one to go faster. We can define confidence as a combination of many factors that can indeed be measured. That's not nearly as simplistic as a bunch of uncorrelated data.

I'm really not sure how to approach this. David E. Davis left his position as a longtime C&D Editor in Chief to start Automobile magazine. Davis did this, because C&D's road tests and their numerical breakdowns did nothing to illustrate how the car actually felt to drive. Similarly, J. Gordon Hold left his position as the Technical Editor at High Fidelity magazine (defunct since ~1990) and started publishing Stereophile, because measured performance did little to indicate how a component actually sounded. Just as with (automotive) confidence level, this isn't to say that a combination of factors defining aural perception cannot be measured, once they are defined.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your perceptive. As a mobile audio manufacturer you may have insight into the situation that others don't. To be clear, I'm not defending Ultra.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Speed

[Aaron Clinton 18]

Great post, and I know you are not defending them. It is the fact that Ultra has been proven to have a very basic / cheap design of this driver, ie. zippy special about it from a design stand point, but their whole argument/defense is just "buy it and listen to it your self" and price should have nothing to do with performance. The point being that they were asked numerous times very simple and direct questions about the driver and Ultra could not answer them what so ever nor did they try to, just kept going with the shadiness of telling the customer that is sounds awesome and nothing more(keeping in mind, Ultra was the side that demanded the Kippel test). Then Ultra requesting to delete the thread saying Kippel tests are worthless, when the driver was shown to test/spec out poorly (identical results) by two different people at two different times and locations with the same results from a re-calibrated Kippel between each test. Quite comical to me honestly. I am not saying I am an expert, but for example, a customer could buy a Fi Q, SSA Xcon, SoundSplinter RL-p, AA Havoc, etc. etc. all drivers that tap dance all over the Ultra in performance, design and technology for less money. All of those drivers of larger size and providing much more information as to why they are great options defining a little why they cost what they do. Ultra has gone about this a little badly, and they are not set up to deal with sharper customers that ask questions beyond the average teenager wondering if it will be loud and will it "hit the low's". Kind of reminds me of the funny CarFax commercials where the customer wants to know some quantitative history of the vehicle and they salesman side steps the question and points to the sunglass holder.

[Speed 11]

Great post, and I know you are not defending them. It is the fact that Ultra has been proven to have a very basic / cheap design of this driver, ie. zippy special about it from a design stand point, but their whole argument/defense is just "buy it and listen to it your self" and price should have nothing to do with performance. The point being that they were asked numerous times very simple and direct questions about the driver and Ultra could not answer them what so ever nor did they try to, just kept going with the shadiness of telling the customer that is sounds awesome and nothing more(keeping in mind, Ultra was the side that demanded the Kippel test). Then Ultra requesting to delete the thread saying Kippel tests are worthless, when the driver was shown to test/spec out poorly (identical results) by two different people at two different times and locations with the same results from a re-calibrated Kippel between each test. Quite comical to me honestly. I am not saying I am an expert, but for example, a customer could buy a Fi Q, SSA Xcon, SoundSplinter RL-p, AA Havoc, etc. etc. all drivers that tap dance all over the Ultra in performance, design and technology for less money. All of those drivers of larger size and providing much more information as to why they are great options defining a little why they cost what they do. Ultra has gone about this a little badly, and they are not set up to deal with sharper customers that ask questions beyond the average teenager wondering if it will be loud and will it "hit the low's". Kind of reminds me of the funny CarFax commercials where the customer wants to know some quantitative history of the vehicle and they salesman side steps the question and points to the sunglass holder.

Very interesting. Thanks for the insight.

[bum 4]

just thought i would bring this post up for a shiggle don't know if the newer guys read it or not yet. also would like to say congrats aaron it almost another year in business.

[Cablguy184 49]

Very interesting ...

[Aaron Clinton 18]

just thought i would bring this post up for a shiggle don't know if the newer guys read it or not yet. also would like to say congrats aaron it almost another year in business.

Why thank you. We never claim to know what we are doing, just that we can watch and learn and find out what not to do.

[discountWatches 0]

Edited August 21, 2012 by Aaron Clinton

[Aaron Clinton 18]

Well, while this topic has been revived by a spammer, the irony is that eDuh is apparently out of business or will be shortly.

So now we have RD/T3/eD who's next?

[pro-rabbit 30]

Does RD count since it was sold? I'm not saying they got better, but didn't fold up yet.

As for who is next, I can see several of these "start up" companies failing pretty quick.

For some inside info I know AQ/DD is having a tough times and are in the middle of some legal battles.

[Aaron Clinton 18]

Does RD count since it was sold? I'm not saying they got better, but didn't fold up yet.

As for who is next, I can see several of these "start up" companies failing pretty quick.

For some inside info I know AQ/DD is having a tough times and are in the middle of some legal battles.

I'm just sick of the kids with their parents credit card, thinking it's simple, just go to China with 5k and tada new sub woofer company. Hell some are even bragging about going to China. Where the problem comes in, is the flurry of sales by the kiddies because it is new and shiny. Then the vicious cycle of poor management and poor CS with average at best product, mixed in with rushing to force more profit faster, followed by product not being delivered, and the company folding or bailing out with so many customers now stuck with out product or refund. I've seen this dance too many times before.

[pro-rabbit 30]

Does RD count since it was sold? I'm not saying they got better, but didn't fold up yet.

As for who is next, I can see several of these "start up" companies failing pretty quick.

For some inside info I know AQ/DD is having a tough times and are in the middle of some legal battles.

I'm just sick of the kids with their parents credit card, thinking it's simple, just go to China with 5k and tada new sub woofer company. Hell some are even bragging about going to China. Where the problem comes in, is the flurry of sales by the kiddies because it is new and shiny. Then the vicious cycle of poor management and poor CS with average at best product, mixed in with rushing to force more profit faster, followed by product not being delivered, and the company folding or bailing out with so many customers now stuck with out product or refund. I've seen this dance too many times before.

That dance will be happening far more now would be my guess. With the amount of new companies where kids are using their parent's cards or even college loans to fund new companies. I can think of at least 3-4 that popped up in the past few months. One is doing a pre-sale right now and has yet to even pay for the product and openly admits it.

[Aaron Clinton 18]

Does RD count since it was sold? I'm not saying they got better, but didn't fold up yet.

As for who is next, I can see several of these "start up" companies failing pretty quick.

For some inside info I know AQ/DD is having a tough times and are in the middle of some legal battles.

I'm just sick of the kids with their parents credit card, thinking it's simple, just go to China with 5k and tada new sub woofer company. Hell some are even bragging about going to China. Where the problem comes in, is the flurry of sales by the kiddies because it is new and shiny. Then the vicious cycle of poor management and poor CS with average at best product, mixed in with rushing to force more profit faster, followed by product not being delivered, and the company folding or bailing out with so many customers now stuck with out product or refund. I've seen this dance too many times before.

That dance will be happening far more now would be my guess. With the amount of new companies where kids are using their parent's cards or even college loans to fund new companies. I can think of at least 3-4 that popped up in the past few months. One is doing a pre-sale right now and has yet to even pay for the product and openly admits it.

Is this audio-phil? If so, I blatantly asked in the open, since he kept using the term "SQL", "SQL? As in Sound Quality Loud?" Clearly an oxymoron of a term, but he said yes.

[pro-rabbit 30]

Yea, Phil openly admits to no funds and started a pre-order so he can pay for the purchase of drivers. He even went as far to suggest at a $175 price take he only makes about $10 bucks per. We all know that is a bit off considering the subs have a landed cost of no more then $70 each.

[Aaron Clinton 18]

Yea, Phil openly admits to no funds and started a pre-order so he can pay for the purchase of drivers. He even went as far to suggest at a $175 price take he only makes about $10 bucks per. We all know that is a bit off considering the subs have a landed cost of no more then $70 each.

Lol, yeah, it's kind of awkward watching that topic. Doing my best to not cut in.

[pro-rabbit 30]

Yea, Phil openly admits to no funds and started a pre-order so he can pay for the purchase of drivers. He even went as far to suggest at a $175 price take he only makes about $10 bucks per. We all know that is a bit off considering the subs have a landed cost of no more then $70 each.

Lol, yeah, it's kind of awkward watching that topic. Doing my best to not cut in.

Indeed, it is like watching a car wreck.You know it is coming, but you still watch. You don't want to end up in the wreck so you avoid it, but while still managing to watch it.

I did step in on another vendor's page over there though. Regardless of if Phil was right/wrong I didn't care, the method in which he chose to disclose his opinion was far beyond egotistical and directed to decrease those sales and boost his. Just find it hard to be nice when someone is being like that.

Edited August 23, 2012 by pro-rabbit

[Aaron Clinton 18]

Yea, Phil openly admits to no funds and started a pre-order so he can pay for the purchase of drivers. He even went as far to suggest at a $175 price take he only makes about $10 bucks per. We all know that is a bit off considering the subs have a landed cost of no more then $70 each.

Lol, yeah, it's kind of awkward watching that topic. Doing my best to not cut in.

Indeed, it is like watching a car wreck.You know it is coming, but you still watch. You don't want to end up in the wreck so you avoid it, but while still managing to watch it.

I did step in on another vendor's page over there though. Regardless of if Phil was right/wrong I didn't care, the method in which he chose to disclose his opinion was far beyond egotistical and directed to decrease those sales and boost his. Just find it hard to be nice when someone is being like that.

Who's?

[pro-rabbit 30]

The IAD pre-order thread.

[Aaron Clinton 18]

The IAD pre-order thread.

Just read that. Audio-phil is shady, and IAD is slimy as all get out. The SKAR'esq pushy marketing posts every few hours "Order today and save!". Makes me want to puke, seriously.

[pro-rabbit 30]

I agree. I have meet the owner if IAD and didn't really see much going on really. I felt sorry for Miles (enclosure builder) getting drug in as a "tester" then told he can not talk about a huge issue that arose.

BTW I have something on sale.....buy now before they are all gone!!!....haha

[Appalvags 0]

Edited July 9, 2013 by Aaron Clinton

[MJS_IraggiAlts 3]

I have never dealt with them, but it was an interesting read :)